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Adnane Ben.
Boston USA
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75
comments.
Dr. Hassan Al-Turabi
11:22:56 PM Tuesday Sep 25, 2007


Dr. Hassan Al-Turabi is an interesting scholar from Sudan I discovered not too long ago through my brother. I was exposed to some of his ideas through this articulate video, which left a positive impression on me. I was particularly impressed by his unique views of Hijab, alcohol and unity. Moderation, understanding, integrity and intelligence are the ingredients I savour of his analysis, much of the same feeling I get when I'm reading Sheikh Mohammed Abdah from Egypt (allah yra7mo).

I'd love to read or watch more of Dr. Al-Turabi.

How do you find his opinions?


On Al-Jazeera Part 1

On Al-Jazeera Part 2

On Al-Jazeera Part 3


The content of this page —graphics, text and other elements—is © Copyright 2007 prospective author, and Raioo, Inc., only when stated otherwise, and may not be reprinted or retransmitted in whole or in part without the expressed written consent of the publisher.



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10:52 am    October 7, 2007
9anfud
75
Cool,

Affichage/codage/Plus/Arabe Windows.

J'ai bien lu ce que tu as écrit en arabe. C'est très riche en informations utiles. Merci.

·

6:30 am    October 7, 2007
cool
74
mettez codage arabe windows pour lire ce que j ai ecrits
·

11:50 am    October 5, 2007
9anfud
73
I wached the videos again and found no comment on laylatu l9adr. Anybody can put it up?

The debate on the Ashar9 2al2awsat forum is concentrated on laylatu l9adr. Maybe because laylatu l9adr is coming just in few days. But through the various comments in that forum, I saw an opposition between hard work and idleness. What Turabi seemed to say is that the fellow moslems should not wait for something to happen just like that in laylatu l9adr, by just sitting there and wishing and asking god to give them what they want, but what they should do on the contrary is working hard in compliance with the islamic precepts.

In the videos here, Turabi gave his "progressist" opinions on the concepts of Jihad, Taw7id, Tajdid, knowlege, freedom of speech, work, peace and self defense, globalization, coexistence and democracy.

The masses' energies control and self-control is necessary for a harmonious development in a peaceful world, he says. Cultlure does not belong to a specific location, to a specific country or nation, to a specific continent; for the current civilisation is built on exchanges between groups and nations over centuries and thousands of years in which Islam has tremendously contributed.

The ideas of Turabi (a Sudanese) disturb many scholars in the world. The substance is a difference between two points of views: one that looks forward and the other that looks backward.

·

11:19 am    October 5, 2007
Mehdi
72
Gustave le Bon can be a good freind of our readings and specially his book La psychologie des foules (1895; English translation The Crowd: A Study of the Popular Mind, 1896).

Good luck.


·

10:36 am    October 5, 2007
3abir sabil
71
PS:An other "khorafa" that Turabi and his brother in law Essadek won't clarifie:the return of "al Mahdi al mountadar"!!
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9:48 am    October 5, 2007
3abir sabil
70
Turabi just made an observation,it's neither a fatwa nor a strange idea.
In "Astérix and obélix" cartoons,gallic people were often afraid the sky will fall on their heads.
In the same way,muslims believe the sky will be open in laylat al Qadr and they will be given all what they ask at that moment !! In fact,
Islam started with very few "mou7arramat" an the fight against "khorafat al jahiliyya" was open.15 centries later,muslims are drowned in an ocean of "mou7arramat and khorafat" they have invented themselves and they are happy to swim in.
·

8:02 am    October 5, 2007
cool
69
adnane j'espere que vous avez compris ce que je voulais dire l'autre fois que dieu nous l a interdit parcequ il mange tt ordure ....
le texte en arabe explique tt .
NB: ttes les remaques sont accepter
·

7:43 am    October 5, 2007
cool
68
ومن المعروف عن الخنزير الطباع السيئة كالشراهة والقذارة وأنظره في حديقة الحيوان كيف يحب أن يتواجد في أماكن بوله وقذارته عكس كل الحيوانات واسأل عن عدد المرات التي تنظف فيها حجرته من أجل أن يروه الزوار في أحسن هيئة ولكن هيهات(والسبب في قذارته والبحث عن القذارة ليتوحل فيها سعيه للترطيب على نفسه فهو لا يمتلك الكثير من الغدد العرقية لذا يحتفظ بكثير من السموم في جسمه) . فهل نقبل على أكل هذه القذارة التي ثبت أنها معدية للبشر بـ 27 مرض مسؤول الخنزير لوحده عنها وهو وسيط لغيره لـ57 مرض في الإنسان منها 32 مرض عن طريق المخالطة المباشرة ومنها 28 عن طريق التلوث ومنها أكثر من 16 مرض عن طريق تناول لحمه مباشرة .وحسب المسبب الميكروبي ينقل الخنزير للإنسان 30 مرض طفيلي (ديدان وطلائعيات وطفيليات خارجية) و8 أمراض فيروسية (أخطرها في الوقت الحاضر مرض أنفلونزا الطيور الذي ثبت تورطه فيه واتهامه بشكل مباشر لكونه يساعد على تحوير عترة الفيروس وتطويرها من ضعيفة الضراوة إلى عالية الضراوة ومن الطور الحيواني ليصبح فيروس بشري له مستقبلات موجودة في الجهاز التنفسي العلوي للإنسان تتعرف عليه فيصيبها)وأكثر من 15 مرض بكتيري و3 أمراض فطرية .

وإذا قال قائل نستطيع تخليص هذا الخنزير من جميع الأمراض التي يصاب بها (عددها 450 مرض) سواء التي يقع ضررها عليه لوحده أو التي ثبت أنها تعدي الإنسان وذلك بتعريض الخنزير للإشعاع وبالتالي لن يضرنا هذا الخنزير أو نستطيع زيادة مقاومة جينات هذا الحيوان أو تحصينه فنقول له أن الميكروب أقل ضرراً من الإشعاع المسرطن و الجينات المعدّلة وراثياً خاصة في البروتين الحيواني فالزم بالتحريم فهو (رب الخلق أجمعين) أعلم بما يضرك وينفعك ولقد وجه لك رب العزة رسائل عديدة عبر شرائعه المنزلة تباعاً تصدق بعضها الأخرى انتهاءً بشريعة القرآن فهل أنتم منتهون .

ويصاب الإنسان بـ10 أمراض غذائية من تناول لحم الخنزير والسبب في ذلك أن لحم الخنزير ثقيل عسر الهضم حيث يحول توزع الدهن المسؤول عن عسر الهضم بين أليافه دون هضمه بسهولة فضلاً عن أن بروتين لحم الخنزير مسبب للتحسس بشكل كبير ويعتبر لحم الخنزير الأقل احتواءً على الجلايكوجين (مولد السكر) ومن الأكثر احتواءً على مادة البولينا (اليوريا) وبالتالي يساعد ذلك أنواع كثيرة من الجراثيم للنمو عليه حيث أنه عادة عند حدوث التيبس الرمي بعد ذبح الحيوان يحدث حموضة بسيطة سببها البكتيريا النافعة(microflora)الموجودة بالأصل في الحيوان (ومنها (acidophilusالتي تتشبع في اللحم وتستهلك هذا الجلايكوجين ومن ثم ترمي بإفرازاتها الحامضية (فضلات البكتيريا النافعة) في اللحم لتحول هذه حموضة هذه الافرازات فيما بعد دون نمو كل أنواع الجراثيم وخاصة الضارة منها.

أما دهنه المخزن في لحمه وتحت جلده الملاصق له والذي يصعب فصله فهو زيتي القوام لذا يعملون منه shorteningحيث أنه قابل للأكسدة بنسبة عالية على درجة أقل من 14ْم بعكس بقية الدهون التي تحفظ على هذه الدرجات والسبب في ذلك احتواء دهن الخنزير أحماض دهنية غير مشبعة بنسبة 62% ودهن الخنزير قابل للتزنخ لأنه يحوي بعد الذبح على أكثر من 2% من الأحماض الدهنية الحرة وثبت بالتقارير الطبية أن لحم الخنزير ومن ورائه دهنه (لأنه السبب حيث يحوي نسب عالية من الكبريت) مسرطن لـ 6 مواقع في الجسم البشري (القولون والثدي والبروستاتا والرحم والبنكرياس والمرارة) .

وللعلم أقرب لحم للحم الخنزير من حيث الطعم لحم الكلاب والقطط التي يمتنع ويتقزز الغرب عن تناولها ولها نفس التركيب تقريباً(وهذا يفسر النسبة العالية لعدد خنازير التربية في شرق أسيا ).

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7:41 am    October 5, 2007
cool
67
ميّز رب العزة البروتين الحيواني عن البروتين النباتي في قوله : { أَتَسْتَبْدِلُونَ الَّذِي هُوَ أَدْنَى بِالَّذِي هُوَ خَيْرٌ }البقرة61 ويتواجد البروتين الحيواني الحلال منه والمقوي الدافع للأمراض والذي يزيد القدرة والمناعة يتواجد في الأنعام المذللة والمحللة لنا بدلاً عن بقية الحيوانات المحرمة كالخنزير والسباع ويتواجد كذلك في الطيور المحللة لنا التي تخلو من المخالب وكذلك في جميع مخلوقات البحر سواء مصطادة أو ميتة. قال تعالى : { وَأُحِلَّتْ لَكُمُ الْأَنْعَامُ إِلَّا مَا يُتْلَى عَلَيْكُمْ }الحج30.

و أهم أنواع الأنعام المحللة لنا : الضأن الحلال وسمي بالحلال عند أكثر العرب لأنه أكثر بركة ونماء وزيادة ولا يرعى في منطقة إلا وتزداد بالكلأ وممكن سمي حلال لأنه ما يحل به الحاج حجه بذبح المقلد منه لبيت الله الحرام وأجاد أحد المحدثين حينما دلل عليه في قوله تعالى {فَكُلُواْ مِمَّا غَنِمْتُمْ حَلاَلاً طَيِّباً وَاتَّقُواْ اللّهَ إِنَّ اللّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ }الأنفال69 . واهتم العرب بتربيته اقتداءً بالرسول الكريم محمد صلى الله عليه وسلم حيث قال : « يُوشِكُ أَنْ يَكُونَ خَيْرَ مَالِ الْمُسْلِمِ غَنَمٌ يَتْبَعُ بِهَا شَعَفَ الْجِبَالِ وَمَوَاقِعَ الْقَطْرِ ، يَفِرُّ بِدِينِهِ مِنَ الْفِتَنِ ». رواه بخاري ومسلم. قال تعالى في وصف كبش الفداء عن إسماعيل النبي : {وَفَدَيْنَاهُ بِذِبْحٍ عَظِيمٍ }الصافات107 . ولم يوصف حيوان غير الضأن في القرآن الكريم بالعظمة ولعظم شأن الضأن العربي عند الله رب العالمين ستره بالآلية وكساه بالصوف ليقيه برد الصحراء ليلاً وشتاءاً ولا يحتاج إلى ظلة أو غطاء بل وتدفئه إليته ويكفيه شرف أن جعله فداء ابن إبراهيم الخليل الأمّة الذي سمانا المسلمين من قبل.

ويعد لحم الضأن (الغنم البيضاء)عالمياً في الوقت الحاضر من أطيب اللحوم الحمراء على الإطلاق ومن أغلاها سعراً(أكثرها ربحاً ) والثاني في الترتيب بالنسبة للاستهلاك البشري بعد الدواجن في المرتبة الأولى - رغم جائحة الإنفلونزا- قال تعالى : {وَلَحْمِ طَيْرٍ مِّمَّا يَشْتَهُونَ }الواقعة21 . يليه في المرتبة الثالثة لحم البقر ومن ثم في المرتبة الرابعة والعياذ بالله لحم الخنزير (حسب مجلة Meat International) .

أما الخنزير فقد قال عنه الأعز من قائلين : { أَوْ لَحْمَ خِنزِيرٍ فَإِنَّهُ رِجْسٌ }الأنعام145. والرجس أي الحرام ولقد علمنا الله المعلم الْأَوَّلُ وَالْآخِرُ وَالظَّاهِرُ وَالْبَاطِنُ وَهُوَ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ {مقتبس من سورة الحديد3} أن جميع ما يدخل في لحم الخنزير هو حرام علينا ليس فقط نحن المسلمين وإنما جميع البشر لأن جميعهم مردّهم واحد ويضرهم واحد وينفعهم واحد ولأن هذا القرآن رسالته عالمية ولقد علمنا أن السر في تحريم لحم الخنزير هو الدهن الممتلئ به (Lard)الذي يصعب فصله عن لحم الخنزير وكل كيلو واحد من لحم خنزير يحوي تقريباً نصف كيلو دهن.

ولكن لماذا حُرّم دهن الخنزير الذي تسبب في تحريم لحمه وما ضرره؟ لقد ثبت أن دهن الخنزير الكائن المذيب الوحيد للستيرويدات الهرمونية التي هي من حيث التركيب دهون فلا يذوب في الدهون إلا الدهون ومن التراكيب المشابهة لهذه الدهون(الهرمونات الستيرويدية) الكوليسترول الضار المسبب لتصلب الشرايين ويتميز دهن الخنزير عن بقية الدهون بالنسبة العالية من الكوليسترول الضار وبالنسبة العالية من الهرمونات الستيرويدية والأخيرة مسؤولة كمحفزة لحدوث السرطانات .

وأركز على موضوع احتواء دهن الخنزير على الهرمونات الجنسية (الستيرويدات) الخربة والمعطلة جينياً ولماذا خربة جينياً لأن هذه الهرمونات الجنسية في غير الخنزير وضعها رب العزة لتنظيم الجنس اتجاه الجنس الآخر فالهرمونات الجنسية العادية تجعل صاحبها يميل نحو الجنس الآخر وتجعله يدفع أبناء جنسه عن جنسه المغاير الخاص به بشراسة وهو ما يسمى بالغيرة- المفقودة عند الخنزير لتعطل هذه الهرمونات الجنسية سواء الذكرية منها عند الذكر أو الأنثوية منها عند الأنثى ومن هنا نجد صفة الدياثة عنده وعند آكله لأننا نكتسب صفات ما نأكله وإذا قال قائل لما لا نأكل الأسود لنكتسب الشجاعة والقوة؟ ونرد عليه أن الأسد رغم غيرته المعهود لها إلا أن شجاعته ضارية وليست عقولة لذا أكله يكسبنا الضراوة والظلم ويبعدنا عن الحكمة فالإنسان وسط متعادل ما بين اللين والشدة يأكل النبات والحيوان لذا يسمى (Omnivarous)ولا يشبهنا في ذلك من الحيوان سوى الخنزير بينما الأسد وغيره من السباع(الهجام التي تسبع وتهجم) من آكلات اللحوم (carnvarous)وأما الضأن الحلال وغيره من الأنعام فتعتبر من آكلات الأعشاب (herbivorous).

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7:00 am    October 5, 2007

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
66
Obviously everybody want to hit the jackpot on laylat Al Qard :-), but nobody is sure when it does accure.
For the Sunnis it’s eithr on 21st, 23rd, 25th, 27th, or 29th.
For the Shia it's the 19, 21th, 23 or something like that...

Dr.Khalifa Rashad supposedly discovered a devine number withing the Quran: 19.
Obviously such a number repeat itself in an interesting fashion. it is considered by some as a divine matrix which can be used to validate or reveal many secrets withing the Quran.
To me that sounds a bit of Kabalah business, wallahu A3lam...

And so they did with laylato Al Qard using similar method :
Some saw signs in Sura 97 "Al Qadr." God mentioned "Laylat Al Qadr" , a phrase that consists of 9 Arabic letters, exactly three times, in 97:1, 2, and 3. The sign was that 9x3=27, which means it is the 27th night of Ramadan.

For all of you Da Vinci code lovers out there, here are more numbers to admire:

http://www.submission.org/ramadan/nightpower.html


Antr, closing the door and getting ready to pray Al-Asr.

·

6:48 am    October 5, 2007

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
65
I don't see why Al-Turabi has to be harshly criticized when he hasn't said anything subversive, or necessarily wrong...

Most of the pro Saudi Cheick are from Saudi Arabia, maybe they are defending his opinions mainly because he is their countryman.

Islam is the monopoly of no one, and it shouldn't turn into an "Idols" contest either...

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6:47 am    October 5, 2007

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
64

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10:01 pm    October 4, 2007

Adnane Ben. message
63
58
I really like Dr Al-Turabi's opinion on how many Muslims approach lailat alqadr. I am with him 100%. And I wish the respected sheikh who is criticizing Dr Al-Turabi responded with a stronger argument so we can learn from his thinking process. This is a probably a minor observation but I wish he said: allah yahdih w yahdina.. instead of saying merely: allah yahdih. The sheikh completely missed the point. Dr Al-Turabi is not under-estimating lailat alqadr or suggesting to ignore it. He is just telling people what nobody has told them before: many tend to over-fantasize the event. Why can't we continue being good, praying and fasting the last 10 days of ramdan, without preferring one night over the other. Aren't we living, for God's sake, in an age and time when your next door Muslim neighboor's Ramdan calendar is offset from yours by one day and sometimes by two days! Haven't we gotten it yet that it doesn't matter whether lailat alqadr is 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28 or 29... what matters is having built a better self by the end of ramdan, with whatever method and means: whether by fasting, praying, giving away, helping out, controlling anger, smiling more often, apologizing, saying hi. If you are worthy of the great reward of lailat alqadr you would have gotten it.

When I was young I loved the whole mystery behind lailat alqadr. I used to get scared to be honest as I imagine angels are among us, in the next room or walking down the street. But it was all good and fun at that age. It instilled in me the love and a certain mystery of this religion. These days, I really find it ridiculous to still hear things like: wash lilet alqadr lyoum wella ghadda? lla raha kanet lbara7... I don't deny it, just like dr. Al-Turabi; its mystery is still in my heart. But I over-fantasize it nomore. Wallaho a3lam.

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4:37 pm    October 4, 2007
9anfud
62
The debate on Turab's ideas on Ashar9 2al2awsat was launched today and the 26th comment has already been posted, so far. It is interesting to compare the course of discussions on this forum with the one on Ashar9 2al2awsat's forum. About fifty fifty are of opposed ideas about the attitude of moslems vis a vis Lailat 2al9dr from Dr. Turabi's point of view. The discussion is hot and this confirm that Dr. Turabi's ideas are raising a growing interest among moslems.
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10:25 am    October 4, 2007

hudhud message
61
Adnane, that's a very insightful interpretation of the verse. I have heard several imams here say that people should not complicate matters for example avoiding medications that may have gelatin derived from animal fats (pig or otherwise) because of the fact that it's a) not the meat and b) it's medically beneficial.

others have said find an alternative etc. I think if the prophet were around, he would not criticize either party. both views are based on ijtihade and literal vs. figurative interpretations. reminds me of the case where the sahaba were traveling and the prophet had commanded them something like don't enter that place til you have prayed asr (or something along those lines). as they were traveling asr time came in, so some believed they should stop and pray and others said, no he meant for us to hurry up and make sure we get to that place by asr time, etc. when they returned they informed the prophet of their diverging views and he did not criticize either of them.

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9:48 am    October 4, 2007

Rasta Gnawi message
60
Adnane, I screwed up the comment below. I didn't mean for the http link to show twice. Something you can fix?
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9:46 am    October 4, 2007

Adnane Ben. message
59
To cool: j'ai toujours eu une certaine difficulte a accepter que le porc est interdit a cause de ses gouts de nouriture. Est ce qu'il y a des references que tu suggeres que je lises pour comprendre plus cette relation? et merci.

Parceque, ce que je comprends c'est que Dieu peut creer la vie a partir de la mort. Et il peut creer la vie a partir de rien. Je penses qu'il peut bien creer de la bonne nouriture pour nous a partir d'un animal qui mange ce que nous ne mangeons pas. Dieu peut creer du lait tout blanc et pur méandrant entre veins et chair.

ps: merci google translation english to french :)

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9:42 am    October 4, 2007

Rasta Gnawi message
58
It seems raioo is not the only forum where turabi is making a splash:
www.asharqalawsat.com
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4:24 am    October 4, 2007
cool
57
je crois que dieu nous a interdit le porc parceque il mange tt les déchet sans exepssion tte les saleté je crois que c pour cette raison allah ne veut pas qu on mange un animal comme si
c mon opinion comme adnane a dit parceque il n as pas de neck
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1:25 am    October 4, 2007

Salem message
56
Adnane,

The last paragraph in your comment is just beautiful. Thanks

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10:03 pm    October 3, 2007

Adnane Ben. message
55
Rasta - in Berkane/Oujda area, hunting wild boar is not allowed unless it is hunting season and only if it is necessary. That is because the Moroccan wild boar is an endangered specie. When local farmers realize herds of boars are destroying their farms, they complain to special officials. This bureau sets up a hunting season, invites local registered hunters as well as Spanish hunters from Ceuta and Melilia - mostly spanish hunters. They hunt, and take all the boars with them. The Moroccans who end up hunting as well do it with the intention of hepling the local farmers save their cultivation.

Going back to the porc subject briefly. In my opinion, it is ok to utilize hidden treasures of the pig for medical advances or magical products like jello. I believe that the Koran is clear in prohibiting the consumption of the MEAT of pig (for reasons I referenced before, let me recap: no neck, no quick and easy kill, little drainage of blood if you end up shooting it; the flesh remains full of blood, which contains unusual amount of toxins in pig).

Innama harrama AAalaykumu almaytata waalddama walahma alkhinzeeri wama ohilla bihi lighayri Allahi famani idturra ghayra baghin wala AAadin fala ithma AAalayhi inna Allaha ghafoorun raheemun

The meat is just one of the ingredients of a pig. I'm sure the pig has many other ingredients to offer for other purposes other than mashwi welqass (now I'm starting to hear Telba chants in the background...).

Let me end with something I learned yesterday from a Somali Imam. If I said anything wrong, then it is from me and I hope to be guided and corrected with truth; if I said anything right then it is bliss from God and I ask his blessings on those who taught me it.

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9:00 pm    October 3, 2007
3abir sabil
54
I'am waiting adan s7our.
Yes,sometimes it is helpful to deduce a rule from another one, like "wa charibaha,wa 3assiraha,wa ba2i3aha,wa 7amilaha,etc...
I already get my friend's answer:
-Muslim druggists used to sell insuline extracted from pig
-Bi addaroura,said al fou9aha2
-My project is bi addaroura too" and he added "la a3boudou ma ya3boudoun..." and "la you2minoun bi ma ou2min".
-"Stop asking and argueing,it's not good for a muslim".I said.
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8:39 pm    October 3, 2007

Rasta Gnawi message
53
in the wejda area (sidi m3afa) and berkan, they hunt wild boars. Is
that also haram? I don't actually know what they do with them once they hunt them. Sometimes that kefta from lguezzar tastes really fatty. I wonder...
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6:26 pm    October 3, 2007

hudhud message
52
"is to find an answer to my friend who plans to breed pigs and sell them(7alal or 7aram??)."

you're joking, right? I just hope you are joking. I mean, no offense but that's really a pointless question. islam teaches that if something is unlawful for you, then it is also unlawful for you to give it (or sell it) to others.

hence the idea of selling pork, or beer, or crack cocaine to others while claiming that you know it's haram for yourself as a muslim to consume is completely ridiculous.

and i don't think anyone here said only by science or only by faith.. balance is good.

addan lel maghrib ouila mazale??

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4:32 pm    October 3, 2007

Salem message
51
Here we go again. :))
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1:48 pm    October 3, 2007
3abir sabil
50
9anfud and Hudhud:"Wa ja3alnakoum oummatan wassata..."
I think it's not wise to explain things only by science or only by faith.This way is some times dangerous.Al 3a9l wal imane must walk hand in hand.Two verses as illustration:
About science:"In istata3toum an tanfoudou min a9tari assamawati wal ard fanfoudou la tanfoudou illa bisoltan".
About faith:" 9ouli rrou7 min amri rabbi wama outitou min al3ilmi illa 9alila".

Hudhud and Rasta:Ok,pork is 7aram and my purpose is not to argue either to eat it or not.My true issue (as I pointed before) is to find an answer to my friend who plans to breed pigs and sell them(7alal or 7aram??).

Baba Salem: Laughing bidmou3 while driving is not cautious. :))

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10:53 am    October 3, 2007

Salem message
49
Yes Rasta. I find it kind of stupid to just sit there waiting for others to discover scientific truths, make technological advances and stand up to yell \"see... we told you this 1400 years ago\".

Rasta, where those little stones in Klila come from?

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10:38 am    October 3, 2007

Salem message
48
I got your point Hudhud. I remember some of my math lessens in college. What did they call those math beings? Axioms, yes, axioms or theorems, that is ideas, beliefs, methods, or statements generally accepted as true or worthwhile without proof. The dictionary gives the following definitions of the word axiom:

1. a self-evident truth that requires no proof.
2. a universally accepted principle or rule.
3. Logic, Mathematics. a proposition that is assumed without proof for the sake of studying the consequences that follow from it.

In other words, to paraphrase your point without mistake I hope, I would borrow a famous expression from Shakespeare : \"2n tu2min 2w la tu2min, that\'s the question\".

Am I correct?

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10:05 am    October 3, 2007

Rasta Gnawi message
47
I agree that some muslims, not a lot, feel the need to validate their faith by pointing out similarities between islamic text and current scientific findings. It's as if they have to compensate for something (backwardness maybe?) Scientific findings can prove something today, and be proven wrong tomorrow. Scientists are working hard to understand a lot of things, but they haven't covered everything yet. I was just speaking with Adane and some friends the other day about this; remember the "Cousteau converted to Islam" rumor after he found the salt water fresh water thing. People were: "see... we told you this 1400 years ago;" or even worse: "smart people are joining us... you must be dumb for not joining yet." It was the funniest thing.

I say no pork because I grew up believing it was wrong to eat it. So much so that it makes me sick just looking at it. Alas, I can't say the same about a lot of other forbiddens. So maybe it's a state of mind.

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1:05 am    October 3, 2007

hudhud message
46
i don't think it's fair to claim that judaism and christianity contradicted with science - and how could you then at the same time believe that islam is somehow a continuation of the two prior abrahamic faiths... some people would like to make it sound that way, but remember that the core message of jesus, moses, mohammed and adam way before was the same, their god was the same, and the basic message of the revelations was the same. it's people who've created the contradictions over time for their own political economic or other selfish reasons.

i guess i just get irritated when ppl try to use science to "prove islam is the purest and the best" as you say.

in fact, irritates the heck out of me. there is no need to "prove" anything - it's a matter of faith that you should freely choose: either you accept it or you don't. either you eat the pork or you don't, either you say sure yeah there's a god and he said don't touch the forbidden fruit or you don't.

i hereby quit this debate. my brain is too sleep deprived to make any more sense of it :o))

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11:50 pm    October 2, 2007
9anfud
45
Hudhud,

It's not only science, it's also history. As it was previously mentionned that Islam is a corrective continuation of monotheist religions. Islam confirmed many existing stories and traditions. Pork meat prohibition is one of these instructions. Pork was prohibited a long time before Islam, by payans (phenicians) and be Jews and maybe even by some christians.

A range of scholars have issued an abondant documentation on religions and science and proved that one of the specificities of Islam is that Al9or2an, although ancient, does not contradict with modern sciences as the two other monotheist religions do. This has been a strong argument used by these scholars in the comparison debate between Judaism, Christianism and Islam to prove that Islam is the purest and the best.

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6:45 pm    October 2, 2007

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
44
I meant vein, not vain...
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6:44 pm    October 2, 2007

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
43
As far as killing an animal the fast way, Adnane\'s post makes a complete sense to me.

I saw a forensic documentary, and the doctor perforning an authopsies on murdered bodies, explained how the vain that is located slightly under the ear, is the major channel which delivers blood to the brain. cutting it or blocking it (by strangling, hanging etc...) would lead to an assured death.

So the fastest way to kill a mamal is to cut it\'s throat.

Uhuh...I sound like Zarqaoui all of a sudden..

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2:38 pm    October 2, 2007

Salem message
42
Hudhud,
We posted our comments exactly at the same time. What do they call that? Telepathy? How are you?. The discussion about Al-Turabi raised a whirl of mix ideas. Very interesting.
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2:28 pm    October 2, 2007
9anfud
41

:)

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2:22 pm    October 2, 2007

hudhud message
40
" For example incest is prohibited because of producing genetic defects".


whoa - stop there. people long ago knew nothing about genetics. and you will not always get a genetic defect, as i'm sure ancient greek mythology can prove :o)) taht's got not to be the reason.
why do some ppl feel the need to find a scientific reason for everything?? what's wrong with just saying that it's a matter of principles, of setting boundaries and holding certain moral values? strikes me as a weakness to constantly rely on science. science is beautiful, it can explain the how, but it can't explain the why, which is where faith comes in.

reminds me the ayah: "bal qolou aslamna wa lamma yadkhoul el imane fi qouloubikoum"
it's one thing to be a muslim to submit follow commands, etc. but another to say you're a true mumin, believing fully in it all.
i think that's the challenge.

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2:22 pm    October 2, 2007

Salem message
39
3abir Sabil,

This is the second time your comments make me laugh so much. Wallahila biddmou3! When I read your comment this morning I roared with laughter. People around me came to me asking what was going on. Later in the day I was driving alone in the car and I remebered the comment on the failure in the pig's design and the missing of its neck. I remembered the ancient poet (maybe from Aljahilya) who discribed a humpback in a "8ija2" (wa ka2annama suya 3la 3ajal), all this along with the brotherhood of humans with pigs and monkeys quoted by 9anfud. I laughed in the car like a creazy person. People in the street would think I'm actually creasy!!! That was a true laughter. You are soooo funny. You have an acute sense of humor man... The previous time you made me laugh so, was on your comment on "Karmous Jbala"...Thank you so much 3abir Sabil :))

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11:34 am    October 2, 2007

Antr McShaddad (Yahia.L) message
38
\"As for pigs, they don\'t have necks by design. Therefore, the only spot left is the heart. But good luck getting to it, it is deep down under the skin of a pig.\"


- Hehehehehe

Thanks for the laugh bro.

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10:33 am    October 2, 2007

hudhud message
37
well maybe the neck design explanation is just another attempt to find scientific/health basis for not eating pork. but islam doesn't say "don't eat pork because it has no neck to be properly slaughtered, etc."

maybe god just said don't do it as a test of faith (i'm sure there are tons of good reasons for lots of the commands we are supposed to follow, but we don't always know them)

my point is, not everything can be so easily explained. some things seem to make sense and just have to be accepted. like my physics teacher in college used to tell me "don't think too hard, just accept the theory and keep working" and after all sometimes you just gotta remember - there's a reason why "faith" is called "faith".


i think that's my new motto in life. don't think too hard. :)

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8:28 pm    October 1, 2007
3abir sabil
36
Arabie:I won't disagree with you but when I read a book I use to zappe the wrong thing and I pick the right one if it could help me to understand my target.
Adnane:"because it's neck is not well designed,pig is forbiden"!! I never tought the design is so important in religion.It's a new intersting topic we have to explore :)
9anfud:" We are brothers"??...amazing !! Tell me,what I did to you?? :)

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8:03 pm    October 1, 2007

Rasta Gnawi message
35
Adnane,
I was going to have some food before hitting the sack tonight. After reading your explanation for why not pork, I have lost my appertite for three days.
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7:16 pm    October 1, 2007
9anfud
34
Another interesting explanation can be found in the following URL:
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Islam_Way_of_Life_Explained#Pork_Meat

"The Old Testament prohibits eating pork meat, so does Koran. Therefore Jews, Moslem and certain Christians prohibits pork meat. One of the favorite explaination about the sacred probitions are three words, "We are brothers". The DNA of Human, Pig and Monkey are similar to each others differs only 2% percentage. This can be witnessed by the proliferation of retro-virus such as HIV from the monkey and the allegation that "bird-flu" virus use pigs as step-stone into human body.

In 5:60, the Koran does mention an event when God turn some people into pig and monkey as punishment. [...]. Modern Muslims sometimes turn to genetics to explain divine laws. For example incest is prohibited because of producing genetic defects".

Quite interesting.

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6:45 pm    October 1, 2007

Adnane Ben. message
33
The short answer for why pigs are forbidden to be consumed: pigs don't have necks.

Why is the neck important here?

Abrahamic religions instill in people respect for animals. We're not allowed to kill them unless for food. And even then our intention should be that we are killing the animals because God allowed it for us to survive, not for mere pleasure, in other words: in the name of God. Hence, before we sacrifice we say bsmillah. As for how to sacrifice the animal, we ought to try to make it 1. quick and easy, and 2. drain as much blood as possible out of the body because blood is not the healthiest element. By design, there are 2 spots in animals which when cut or torn can accomplish 1 and 2. Both of these spots have one thing in common: the thickest channels of blood run through them. The first spot is the heart since it is the single prizm of blood. However, cutting through the heart of an animal will be the messiest struggle for many reasons: thickness of skin, rib cage and internal bleeding. The second spot is the neck. By design, necks have less thick of a skin, the distance between the blood channels and the skin surface is short, and they provide less messy cut and blood drainage outlet. That is why we're taught to cut through the throat of animals.

As for pigs, they don't have necks by design. Therefore, the only spot left is the heart. But good luck getting to it, it is deep down under the skin of a pig. The purpose here remember is 1 and 2. make the sacrifice quick and easy, and drain as much blood as possible.

So pigs are not terrible as we've grown to believe. They are animals with a respected purpose in the ecosystem lifecycle. They're just not our type of food.

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6:34 pm    October 1, 2007
arabie
32
3abir sabil, \\\"...I agree,but I\\\'ll add that interpretating Quran need also a reading of Torah,old Testament,Talmud and Evangil.It\\\'s what el Jabri did in his book(hard work).Islam is a continuum of judaïsm and christianism.\\\"

I have to respectfully disagree simply because the whole entire reason Islam came to existence is correct what went wrong in the old text (Bible+Torah). People added, omitted, and changed these old text, thus Mohammed (SAW) was chosen to carry on the true message. Every profit before Mohammed (SAW) had a miracle but what was Mohammed\\\'s (SAW)? Yes you guessed it, it is the Quran itself. All of the relevant stories in old testaments are included in the Quran. Islam is certainly a continuum of Judaism and Christianity in a sense of correcting the two religions\\\' books while providing new details.

Also, I don\\\'t think I said that Alcohol was not prohibited. I have actually stated that Quran does NOT prohibit it however Hadith does. Thus it is indeed haram.

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6:17 pm    October 1, 2007

Rasta Gnawi message
31
pigs as forbidden fruits :D I love it; made me smile in the middle of math homework (very hard to pull off)

I can just imagine it now: a big tree with little piggies oinking. cracks me up. Maybe I need some coffee.

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6:14 pm    October 1, 2007
3abir sabil
30
Hudhud:May be.Still I need an explanation:" kay yatm2inna 9albi " as the prophet Ibrahim or Moïse (don't remember) said to god when hi asked to show him his power or his face.
The answer to this question is important(I hope Adnane will help),because a friend of me(a muslim) want to raise pigs and sell them to non-muslims.He is sure that he will make a good profit because pig gives many babies in one birth.He asked if this business halal or haram.I found his question intersting but difficult.
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5:40 pm    October 1, 2007

Adnane Ben. message
29
3abir sabil, I have read a very good explanation of why pork is forbidden. I am kind of full right now, can't type too much, I'll come back later on to describe the reason behind forbidding pork.
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5:33 pm    October 1, 2007

hudhud message
28
3abir sabil there could be other good reasons why we are prohibited from eating pork that we may not have discoverd.

or - and here's where the test of faith comes in - maybe it's just like the forbidden fruit in paradise. don't touch it. plain and simple.

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5:23 pm    October 1, 2007

hudhud message
27
"First, I would like to clarify a point here. Islam is not based only on Quran, there is also Hadith. Now Hadith is also part of the islamic rule makeup, and it should not be ignored."

that's a really excellent point - many of the do's and don'ts are elaborated upon in hadith, and the Quran certainly does direct us to obey the prophet's teachings "Wa atee3oullaha wa atee3ourrassoul."

a really common example: wudu - it is not fully detailed in quran (which simply mentions wash your face, hands, etc.) yet it is clarified step-by-step in hadith and traditions of the prophet, etc. Lots of the smaller details are explained more explicity in hadith, while the verses deal more with the bigger issues - the main principles and values of faith.

I think a good thing to remember is the saying of Aisha - when asked about the prophet she described him as: "Kaana kholouquhu al quran" i.e. his behavior and character embodied the quran.

so the two go hand in hand, and anyone who denies that is delusional or will simply be missing half his/her faith.

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5:20 pm    October 1, 2007
3abir sabil
26
Rasta:yes I guess what you are talking about.Me too,I got a headach while reading"Na7nou wa tourat".Believe me,"Madkhal ila al 9or2an al karim" is easier than what you think.It's worth to be read.
PS:by the way,3abid el Jabri is from Figuig,may be we have to ask him to write an other book on "Ta2tir klila 3ala al wa3y wa allawa3y al insane al figuigui". (just kiding) lolllllll

Arabie:you said that "islam is not based only on Quran,there is also Hadith".I agree,but I'll add that interpretating Quran need also a reading of Torah,old Testament,Talmud and Evangil.It's what el Jabri did in his book(hard work).Islam is a continuum of judaïsm and christianism.
PS:I won't argue about alkhool;it's not only haram it's a dangerous stuff too.However,it's not clear to me why pork is forbiden??Some use to explain that it contains parasites and other bugs!! Cow,sheep,goat and chiken are in the same case,isn't it?
Who could tell me an other answer??

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1:24 pm    October 1, 2007
arabie
25
First, I would like to clarify a point here. Islam is not based only on Quran, there is also Hadith. Now Hadith is also part of the islamic rule makeup, and it should not be ignored.

Yes, there is no Aya that EXPLICITLY prohibits alcohol just like it prohibits pork and gambling. However, there is a hadith that explicitly porhibits drinking alcohol (public or private). Please forgive me for not translating or referencing it here. I can find it and post it up here at a later time though.

Now back the main issue, which I think stemmed from a lack of good and concise answer to the following question: Who is considered a well-known scholar worthy of interpreting Quran?

For example, Mr Ibrahim, you had mentioned Said Kutb as one of the well-know scholars worthy of such task. Now with all due respect that is just absurd. Now Said Kutb can interpret and write whatever he wants and so should Hassan Al-Turabi. Now it should be up the masses to agree on a madhab to follow. I believe that Morocco we have one madhab that we all follow, just like Saoudia Arabia does, and within that context scholars should continue Ijtihad.

That's the beauty of Islam that many had stripped away from it in recent history. There is no one that can stand between a muslim and God. No one is allowed to say whether you should question and research the truth on your own.

Now about Hassan Al-Turabi, his speech is like music to my ear. I am confident that he has the material to backup his assertions. I cannot blindly take all he preaches but I would certainly look it up and research it myself. It's just nice to have someone who already discovered another, straight path to the truth.

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1:03 pm    October 1, 2007

Rasta Gnawi message
24
3abir sabil,

Thanks for bringing up El Jabri. I haven't seen his work on the quran, but there's another person who's devoted his life to the study of the arab mind in an effort to reconstruct a better mind. It takes me forever to read his books as I have to read each page 5 times before I understand what he's getting at; largely because the subject matter is so abstract to me, whereas he deals with it as though he's a medical examiner performing autopsy. I hope his quran book is easier to follow.

I meant no disrespect. I think it helps to have each other's logic questioned and critiqued every now and then.

As for klila, it was so freaking hot in figuig, all I could think of was how sweet those cold days of January seemed. There was no energy left to think of getting any klila. I thought of buying some in wejda, but every time I eat some that was not prepared by my family, I end up chewing hard on some little stone. I have too many crowns in my mouth as it is.

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10:26 am    October 1, 2007

Mohamed Brahimi message
23
Brother baba Salem,
Just on a lighter note, you seem to be very familiar with "the Kalila Fermentatiom process" that would make you somewhat of an authority in that realm. Now how would feel if Dr, Turabi tries dismissing your kalila know how, and decides to give you his normative "opinion" about how a good kalila should be made.... again this is just a little lighthearted comment
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Foot note: A great deal of leeway is extended to those who have resided or have at least some sort of relation to the area wedged between Tawrirt and Figuig when the topic at hand is "kalila.. Afa90n wa tatallo3at" translation: "kalila.. Horizons and aspirations"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
On a related note, I really do appreciate your concern for respectful debate and say that I am glad that Mr. rasta and adnane have both abided by the rules of civilized debate and I hope that I have done my share in reciprocating

Thank you

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9:01 am    October 1, 2007

Salem message
22
Or you can make it out there, yourself by necessity, as long as it is always possible to make some Lben out of milk and then cook the Lben through coagulation until it's nearly dry (don't burn it), all you have to do afterwards before final use or conservation, is to dry it preferably under brazen sun or in similar conditions (hot and dry).

Good luck.

PS. I have been following with interest the discussions over the hottest topic since I joined the community. Very interesting indeed. One of the most interesting aspects in the debate is how to say what you want to say with all due respect to all participants in the debate, that is to refrain from offending the others with inapropriate words because that would disturb the course of discussion and diminish the quality of the debate outcome. This is a very enriching exercise that we can capitalize in our social and professional life. CIVILISATION !!!

Thank you ALL.

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8:25 am    October 1, 2007

Salem message
21
Unless Rasta has brought some in Tendrara in his way back to Wujda, I don't think you'll be lucky enough to find some Klila in the Ztaten. :)
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5:25 am    October 1, 2007

Mohamed Brahimi message
20
Dear Br. Adnane,
Please do not put words in my mouth, at least not until Fotour time, as you know I am fasting and strictly prohibited from taking anything by way of mouth. (LOL)
No, seriously now, Ijtihad is not Haram, it is Haram for someone like myself who spent few years at Al Karaouine university and thinks that it enough to be dismantling the divine text and explaining it to others. It is also Haram for those who think that they can do just as well a job because they are familiar with the Arabic alphabet. There are conditions and pre requisite to being a Mufasir just like there are certain prerequisite to working for Mass General or even working a job as simple and rudimentary as (MC2) LOL... I am kidding I am being silly of course you know I love you
Anyhow, it is not Ijtihad that is in question ,it the Mujtahideed who ought to be scrutinized and checked to see if they meet those conditions.
I mean, even in litterature when a literary person is determined to lack the ability to interpret Schakespeare, he or she is told to stick with Robert Frost and may be make their way up in few years of Literay production. NOT in Koran thought, everyone hold himself to be an expert.

On a seperate note, I beg to differ with you on the prohibition of Alcohol ad I say that it absolutely and clearly forbiden in Koran with a clear text. Which only goes to reinforce the point that Tafseer is a science and unless you have mastered that science, you need to refere yourself to the renown scholars.

Koran was considered a miracle because how eloquent a text it was. Arabs in Jahiliya were known for how articulate they were. Yet when they read Koran, they wre stomped in the sense that they could not believe how sophisticated a document it was. Now, how many people do you know who have gone to the lousy school system that we have and can look you straight in the eye and tell you that they do not need to read Ibn kateer to understand Koran. Yeah, they say that it is self explanatory... a piece of cake. I personally know a lot of those people.
Hey, do you know where I can get some KLILA??
Take care

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4:57 am    October 1, 2007

Mohamed Brahimi message
19
Brother Rasta,
The key word(s) you are not paying attention to is "the likes" . that is to say that (my) Hamza did not talk about Dr, Turabi by name but talked about those who are not versed in a particular science and I do emphasize the word science , this is not just a topic, I can give my take on the Atkins diet even though I am not a nutritionist, but you will never catch me dead talking about Gynocology (not a terribly bad science to start learning.. LOL)
I do not posesses the academic crudentials to do so. Unless I am ready to go and acquire these crudentials, I will stick with my trade.
This is not to berate( thanks for the word, I had to look it up) dr. Turabi. This is to say that science , any science has its own people with an established track record that qualifies them to be an authority in their field.
I never said that the field of tafseer is sealed, with all due respect, you are making your own assumptions. What I eluded to is the same redundant thing I said over and over. I will be interested in Dr. Turabi's interpretation of a legal text. I will be willing to take Tafseer from Abdelkarim daoudi may God rest his soul. The prophet himself has cautioned from taking "Ilm" from other that its own people.
Do you know how the science of hadith developed, do you know how we ended up with hadiths ranging from the authentic to the weak and the dubious. Read about it, it is one AMAZING undertaking all for the sake of accuracy and to avoid speculations and interpretations by opinion.
Have you recently read the fatwas regarding breafeeding a co- worker, that is what Dr. Bashiri God rest his soul refered to when he talked scratching one's back and pulling a Fatwa.

Tafseer is a very complicated science that is best left to those who are well vested in it. As a graduate of the University of Al Karaouine in Fes, I have gained so much appreciation for the science of Koran and I can honestly tell you that it should be left to those who have put in years of academic devotion.

To give dr. Turabi leeway to interpret Koran mainly because he hold a PhD, is the equivalent of assuming that you can bust some real Ragae tunes and that you can give Bob Marley a run for his money just because of the screen name that you have chosen
(althought, that is absolutely within the realm of reality)

Take care

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12:09 am    October 1, 2007

Adnane Ben. message
18
Very interesting comments!

9anfud, I also figured there is no verse that explicitly prohibits alcohol. But I look at it as prohibited just because God goes as far as landing a verse about it, associating it with evil and therefore explicitly asking us to avoid it. Its perils outnumber its advantages, that's what the verse says. If Microsoft puts a press release warning users not to download a specific list of software applications out there, because although you can benefit from the services of those third party applications, Microsoft figured that your OS Windows would suffer greatly in the long run, as these applications could open up potential virus attacks or abuse your computer resources.

I would stay away from those applications. Period.

Mohammed, why is ijtihad arraye haram, man? I mean, was it not for ijtihad arraye, the madahib would not have existed in the first place? am I missing something? and by curiosity, how come there are no more madahib? could this be a sign that sometime in history ijtihad was killed, and I would guess for political motives? and probably replaced by passive thinking which developped and crystalized into blind following and superstition. I really feel ijtihad for ideas, thoughts and brainstorming - and I don't mean Fatwas - should be open to every Muslim. Muslims should not be afraid to interpret scriptures and exchange notes.

I cannot anymore limit myself by referencing the scriptures's explanations through a single prism of theology alone. Today's Medical doctors, surgeons, mechanical engineers, software engineers, legal minds, anthropologists, oceanologists, who care about this religion and feel they have new intrepretations to bring to the table, should be encouraged to do so. They should be given the opportunity and platform to express their findings. The old scholars who had the guts to write tafassir of the Koran, ibn kattir, kortoby, tabari etc. each was a scholar in a specific field or discipline. Tabari's forte was the arabic language so he approached the Quran from a balagha point of view. Ibn Kattir if I'm not mistaken specialized in history. Today, a Law veteran who lives current political and social adventures could approach things differently. Today's banker could revolutionize how finance and investment can be done. Today's mathematician could solve complex metaphors of logic in the Quran and sunna. When you travel these days by car, you consult goole maps or better yet you buy a GPS device. You don't pick up an old map from the sixties and hit route 90.

Honestly, I feel more hope reading and listening to someone like Al Turabi giving his opinions on religion in light of my time and age, and using references of my own world, references I can relate to. Particularly, his take on Hijab and the verse where the word Hijab was mentioned is just brilliant! his distinction between hijab and khimar is key. It's one of those moments when I go a-ha!

·

8:58 pm    September 30, 2007

Rasta Gnawi message
17
two quotes:
1- {Cheick Hamza Yusuf talks about the likes of Dr, Turabi in one of his lecture, he cites an old south asian...}
2- {Second, I did go back to revise my initial post and I was relieved to find that I did not even say that hamza yusuf was talking about Dr, Turabi when he lectured about the danger of week end Muftis}

So he doesn't talk about Turabi, but you give yourself the liberty to. I'm curious why you put yourself in a position to berate Turabi. I mean, I can pull quote after quote from posts where you directly berate him; (amateur mufassir?)

Anyway, looks to me like you need to sort a few things out for yourself. As for Ibn Kateer, Qourtoubi, etc... They didn't close the tafseer door behind them. Mohammed was the last messenger, but they were not the last mufassireen.

·

8:07 pm    September 30, 2007
3abir sabil
16
PS:recently two moroccan scholars are truying to interpret koran in different ways:
1°)Abdelhadi Boutaleb(PhD from al 9arwiyyine,ex-ministre and king advisor) in his book:" 9abassat min nour addikr al 7akim".
2°)Mohammed 3abid Al Jabri(Philosopher,professor at Med V university,ex-leader of USFP) in his book:" Madkhal ila al 9or2aan al karim".
I found de second one more intersting and exciting!!
·

6:33 pm    September 30, 2007

Mohamed Brahimi message
15
First off, let me state for the record that I have not made any claims, implied or otherwise, that I am in a position to even start comparing my self to Dr. Tourabi. Such, a comparison is absurd at a minimum at arrogant at best.
Second, I did go back to revise my initial post and I was relieved to find that I did not even say that hamza yusuf was talking about Dr, Turabi when he lectured about the danger of week end Muftis. Such danger is greater than what you think and it is the well manifested these days in the allowing a female to breastfeed her co-worker for the purpose of lifting “kholwa” or being alone with a non “mahram”.
All I said is that Dr. Turabi is known to pander to what Adnane is calling “ the progressive understanding of spirituality” which is often an ambiguous term or expression used by some writers to cast doubt in what we have available in Islamic sciences. I invite to think about that expression and others like “ moderate Islam” or the widely used “Islamism”. These are all booby trapped terms that warrant a lot more reflection on our part if we really value our intelligence and pride ourselves on being critical thinkers.
There is a concept called “attafseero bi ara2y” which translates to using one’s own opinion in interpreting Koran. That, my friends, is HARAM flat out HARAM. Don’t take my word for it, ask someone you personally revere as a scholar. That type of interpretation is great with poetry, in fact, it is highly encouraged when treating a poetic text NOT the word of Allah. Dr. Turabi is a legal scholar, a very smart man you don’t graduate with a PhD from the Sorbonne by slacking off, you just don’t!!
Dr. Turabi is not a scholar of Islam. I would have gotten Nizar Kabbani’s case has he tried to interpret Koran (you have No idea how much I love Nizar) I would have reprimanded Abderrahman Mounif in the same fashion had he used his own arbitrary opinion explaining divine scripture.
Dr. Turabi was asked about the validity of hijab since he had given a fatwa that hijab is not one of Islam’s mandates; not only did he dance around the question, he even invoked a verse that had nothing to do with Hijab’s prescription and talked particularly about the wives of the prophet (PBUH)
The Islamic library is rich with tons of tafseer such as Ibn Kateer, Al Kortoby, Said Kotb. These are the authorities in interpreting Koran, Dr. Turabi is an amateur in that area and he should have consulted the right sources before piping up. As to his political career, he was honest enough to concede his failure. All he has left to do now is admit that he is a legal scholar not one who is versed in Koran.
BY the way, I did get a chuckle out of that “your hamza” comment
·

6:07 pm    September 30, 2007
3abir sabil
14
Attafsir is an old-new issue;
In his report to the ISESCO(islamic education,sciences and culture organization),cheikh Omar el Kadi(professor at al Azhar) stated:"When scholars teach Islam to a muslim,there is no two ways about methodology:the professor(who knows) teachs and the pupil has to learn.But with a non-muslim,instead of behaving as a teacher,we have to converse...".
This statement has to be argued.At present many muslims are asking for a conversation-method too.
Are scholars taking into accompt this change and the questions raised with it?(Who are these scholars ,what are they saying ,are they coherents and what are their interests?).I hope so.
·

4:06 pm    September 30, 2007
9anfud
13
Let's go to some details now. Dr. Al-Turabi said that alcohol is Haram. Of course every single "good" moslem says it is Haram. Although he stated there is nothing to worry about when it comes to people dringking privately at home (their own businness), he still says it is Haram.

As far as I know, there is no Ayat that clearly prohibits alcohol. I know about 3 verses ranging from warning against drinking and going to prayers to ordering the believers to avoid consumption of alcohol among other things if they seek a sound success (...la3allakom tufli7un!). While the holy Koran clearly prohibits porc meat and gambling it has not systematically prohibited alcohol according to the 3 indicated verses.

This is the only thing Dr. Al-Turabi seemed to be a bit timid about; otherwise I agree with him on all points he expressed in the videos.

Wonderful expressed ideas I want to emphesize here cover A7ijab issue, agression and defense principles, openess to other cultures and acceptance of differences with other religions... rare are the scholars of Al-Turabi's rank who dare express such modern and positive ideas within the nowdays militant islam.

·

2:59 pm    September 30, 2007

hudhud message
12
my favorite teacher when it comes to understanding the quran is the late egyptian sheikh Mohammed Metwalli El Sharawi - he always emphasized that his lessons were not "tafsir" - rather he called them "khawater" out of humbleness. The beauty of his lessons was that he explained the language of the quran such that you could come to understand the verses on your own, rather than passing on opinions on do this, don't do that, etc. I love listening to his lessons. All kinds of people from the highest ranking public officials to the average Joe on the street would attend and all would be in awe of the beauty and simplicity of his style.

The other nice thing about his style is that he always tried to give concrete examples that everyone could relate to.

Sheikh Sharawi

·

2:33 pm    September 30, 2007

hudhud message
11
euh... I think you people are all missing one really important point...

No one has the right to claim "tafsir" except the prophet himself, upon whom the Quran was revealed, and who received direct understanding from angel Gabriel who explained to the prophet the meaning of the verses, and taught him the principles of this great faith.

Even the greatest scholars from the time of the sahaba never claimed the right or the knowledge to tafsir. They were humble enough to realize their place and look up to the prophet for inspiration and understanding. What they attempted to explain was based on their understandings of the prophets' teachings, not based on their own personal desires or opinions.

So Dr. Hasan al Turabi has explained some of his understanding - that does not make it tafsir, but still he has more knowledge and educational training in religious and legal studies than any one of us here on this thread. The least we could do is listen, learn and try to see where it fits in with what we do or don't know.. personally I don't know enough about his opinions to make such judgemental statements but I'm open to learning more about him and his views.

I like the way he talks, as a side note. He's pretty eloquent and speaks clearly and calmly, and did you notice he has a smile on his face almost all the time? :) that's a very special trait in a sheikh.

·

2:23 pm    September 30, 2007

hudhud message
10
euh... I think you people are all missing one really important point...

No one has the right to claim "tafsir" except the prophet himself, upon whom the Quran was revealed, and who received direct understanding from angel Gabriel who explained to the prophet the meaning of the verses, and taught him the principles of this great faith.

Even the greatest scholars from the time of the sahaba never claimed the right or the knowledge to tafsir. They were humble enough to realize their place and look up to the prophet for inspiration and understanding. What they attempted to explain was based on their understandings of the prophets' teachings, not based on their own personal desires or opinions.

So Dr. Hasan al Turabi has explained some of his understanding - that does not make it tafsir, but still he has more knowledge and educational training in religious and legal studies than any one of us here on this thread. The least we could do is listen, learn and try to see where it fits in with what we do or don't know.. personally I don't know enough about his opinions to make such judgemental statements but I'm open to learning more about him and his views.

I like the way he talks, as a side note. He's pretty eloquent and speaks clearly and calmly, and did you notice he has a smile on his face almost all the time? :) that's a very special trait in a sheikh.

·

2:07 pm    September 30, 2007

hudhud message
9
euh... I think you people are all missing one really important point...

No one has the right to claim "tafsir" except the prophet himself, upon whom the Quran was revealed, and who received direct understanding from angel Gabriel who explained to the prophet the meaning of the verses, and taught him the principles of this great faith.

Even the greatest scholars from the time of the sahaba never claimed the right or the knowledge to tafsir. They were humble enough to realize their place and look up to the prophet for inspiration and understanding. What they attempted to explain was based on their understandings of the prophets' teachings, not based on their own personal desires or opinions.

So Dr. Hasan al Turabi has explained some of his understanding - that does not make it tafsir, but still he has more knowledge and educational training in religious and legal studies than any one of us here on this thread. The least we could do is listen, learn and try to see where it fits in with what we do or don't know.. personally I don't know enough about his opinions to make such judgemental statements but I'm open to learning more about him and his views.

I like the way he talks, as a side note. He's pretty eloquent and speaks clearly and calmly, and did you notice he has a smile on his face almost all the time? :) that's a very special trait in a sheikh.

·

10:38 am    September 30, 2007

Rasta Gnawi message
8
MOhammed,

Your second paragraph contains some generalizations that contradict what I see around me. In fact, what I see is that people have no problem giving you their opinion on your personal life, and DEFINITELY refrain from giving you an interpretation of Quraan. You most likely live among some people that don't care about personal life and think themselves 3ulamaa. I would love to live around you, and not have anyone tell me "you should do this, and you should do that."

As for your first paragraph... let me see, "cheikh" Hamza Yussuf? You are telling us that the experiences of a "failed" head of state are not rich enough to endow him with a unique understanding of the Quran, especially when said failed head of state has cut his teeth as a student of law. Wasn't the Quran sent to establish rules of fairness in how people dealt with each other. I tend to believe that a scholar of law (and shari3a, by the way; read his biography -Pre-khartum univ era) and someone who was in a position to impose rules on people does have a good perspective on the Quran.

I don't know when your Hamza yussuf made these remarks about Turabi, but he must not have had matured as a Muslim then.

Let me repeat something that you said in your post: {His ignorance was so unequivocal as he took a stab at the aya of :" .... min wara2 7ijab" whitch translates to "from behind a partition"} ---> "his ignorance"; are you kidding me? you are measuring yourself up to him? Seriously... unless you have spent decades studying law and shari3a, and ruled a state, and was in and out of prison for political and ideological struggle, you should sit tight at your level and show some respect.

I don't see two lives. I see an extension of the struggle to improve a failed nation. At least he tried, by force and by words.

·

3:54 am    September 30, 2007
9anfud
7
Good point of correction. "It seems unfair to bring up people's past mistakes to condemn their present". Thanks. I wish all the best to Mr. Al-Turabi for his second life. May he be an element of construction to his people. All this world needs now is PEACE.

Allah yjibna fswab.

·

3:26 am    September 30, 2007

Adnane Ben. message
6
Mohammed Hi man!
I can understand your feelings about this. It's usually perceived as a controvertial issue when someone gives his/her own best guess and opinion of what a particular content in the Quran was meant to stand for. We are told interpreting Quran content is reserved only for well-learned scholars. I cannot disagree with this. It makes sense since understanding the Quran requires a journey through history books and articles, a grasp of the arabic language, an intelligent mind to solve metaphors, paying attention to details, remembering events, studying historical personalities, and a lot of other activities. Yet, I know that when I read the Quran, my mind is always actively looking for interpretation in its own realm. The above-mentioned restriction has clearly turned the inherent human right of critical thinking into a taboo. Let's just be honest with ourselves. Why do we read the Quran if not to ponder upon the verses, flip explanatory books of respected authors, look up words in dictionnaries, reference history articles, and at some point use our own mind, worthy of contribution to this learning process, to acquire knowledge. In fact, when we finally use our mind, we might just come up with probably the next best interpretation. Someone could have missed something. Al-turabi was simply excercising this right.

B.A. in Law, Khartoum University 1951-1955
M.A. in Law, University of London 1955-1957
Ph.D. in Law, Sorbonne, Paris, 1959-1964

I am not familiar with his past, but from what I sensed in the comments below and from his limited biography online, I understand that he almost had two distinct lives. In his first, he was what the media nowadays would perceive as a fundamentalist, or a haven provider for terrorists. In his second, he reviews and corrects his ideologies and moves on as he pursues in my view a more wholly and progressive understanding of spirituality. It seems unfair to bring up people's past mistakes to condemn their present.

Now maybe, we could take a few points that Turabi made and see what is wrong, or what is right with it.

·

7:12 pm    September 29, 2007
9anfud
5
Religion must not directly be linked to politics. When it does, it is no more religion, wright? for most politicians are just "sin". There is no room for politics in religion. When politics invest religion it's nothing more than politics. Manipulation of religion is epidemic in our time... it's a prejudice that has to be corrected...

Allah Yehfad...

·

6:42 pm    September 29, 2007
3abir sabil
4
Al Turabi's receipt: 5 quintals self-business + 2 quintals politics + 1 quintal religion + half quintal theatrical ethnocentrisme + some fatwas as spices.
·

2:39 pm    September 29, 2007
9anfud
3
I share most of the ideas expressed by Mr. Hassan Al-Turabi in the posted videos. I just wonder if he had the same ideas when he was co-ruling the country of Sudan. I rememer that at those times many sudanes had lost their hands by amputation punishment because they had presumebly stolen something...

Allah Y7adder Assalama.

·

1:28 pm    September 29, 2007

Mohamed Brahimi message
2
Cheick Hamza Yusuf talks about the likes of Dr, Turabi in one of his lecture, he cites an old south asian saying that goes like this:" hals a surgeon is dangerous for the health and hald a scholar is dangerous for the soul."
Dr. Tourabi is in no position to be interpreting Koran and if you just listen to the way he treats the Koranic text, you would be appauled at how he is using his own interpretations and not that of those who have what it takes to interpret Koran. Dr. tourabi is a failed statesman as well as a failed scholar. His ignorance was so unequivocal as he took a stab at the aya of :" .... min wara2 7ijab" whitch translates to "from behind a partition"
I am always amazed at people tend to refrainin from giving you their opinion in matters that could stand personal takes and they would so coyly say that they are not well versed in that topic and thus it would not be right for them to weigh in on it; Yet when the topic is the interpretation of the holy Koran, everyone becomes a scholar just because they may have come across a pamphlet or a brochure and read it and that some how made them expert in the topic. That is the most dangerous thing for Islam and Muslims. These are the week end Muftis, these are the pamphleteers who proclaim to be a scholar in one of the hardest science, the Koranic sciences

LA hawla wa la qoata illa billah

·

8:52 am    September 28, 2007
Mehdi
1
Cool...
·

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Ana Smayti Sa3id!..
 
2006
Al-Hawli Jokes..
Zawiya Qadiriya Boudchichiya Open Air Speech..
US Patent by Sa Majeste H. Roi du Maroc..
Jahh Bless Mon! Feeling down to earth tonight!..
Cannot Believe These Idiots!..
NESS LA CITY: All?e Sans Retour! LOL..
When Lotfi Attar Rides Matabkish wave! You Lissann mon!..
KUDOS TO Cheikh Sidi Bemol & Band!!..
No Comment! DARRITOUNI.....
Mortality Meets Online Status..
Michael Richard Busted and Sorry!..
The UMMA Clinic..
Hanane Fadili Take on Shouaffa(tt)..
Hijab: Strict Code or Fashion Barcode ..
To The Fasting Darling..
Rimitti: Ana Li Ghrasset aNakhla....
Reminiscing Tex Avery Cartoons!..
Happiest Guy in Morocco!..
The Super-cool Hanane Fadili..
Cette Affaire d'Avions ? Londres..
Watch 2M Television..
American Muslim Fun Video Blogging!..
Open War in the Middle East?..
Touche Po a Mon Zidane!..
Ronaldinho Joined Zawya....
Marock!..
Draw Live!..
Zoo Animals Need e'space..
Les ABRANIS: Prodigy of Rockabyl..
Sofiane Saidi: Cet Algerien Trip-rai Hopper..
Lemchaheb Legacy ..
Zahra Hindi, Beautiful You!..
Jajouka's Winds of Moroccana..
Google Language Translation: English to/from Arabic..
Aziz Mekouar, Ambassador of the Kingdom of Morocco to the US..
Google Shoots Microsoft.. One.. More.... Time!..
Monsieux Mehdi Ben Barka: Un Marocain Assassiné Qui Visait P..
Yale, Taliban and Weld L'Hashemi....
Near-eastern Muslim Scholars..
Three Algerians on Highway =]..
Moroccan Riverdance!..
Moroccan Candle-toe Dance..
Moroccan Qassida: Vraie Poesie!..
LA3MARNA Legacy..
Chilling Like a Mqedem in Morocco..
Alone in the Wilderness..
Are Iranians and Americans Blowing it Up?..
Are we a virus..?..
How come Morocco is silent to Dalfour, Sudan?..
Barreling Towards an Iraqi Civil War..
Pomme and Kelly ..
Intelligent Design and Evolution in not so American lands..
The Prophets animated by Steve Whitehouse..
More with Claudio Bravo..
Muslim Texans..
Hajj Stampede Gone Ugly!..
Self-portraits 001-002..
Why Faith?..
Online 7awli Souk!..
2006 !..
 
2005
Derbouka Bled Attack..
Adopted HIV kids from Romania..
Operation Mapping Raioo Love!..
They burnt themselves.. Come'on!..
My Winamp Skin: The New Beetle..
The Forbidden Zone film that electrified me!..
Cousins skyblogging..
Chilean artist in Morocco..
Moroccan Blue tops colors!..
Osama in FAMILY GUY..
Baraka Art..
Itsy Bitsy knowledge..
The most misunderstood [and growing..] world religion, Islam..
Moroccan Christians..
Polygamy in USA..
Architecturing to joy!..
This Moorish cult in America..
The Magnificient King Vulture..
Al-Rashid and the Fart..
On the subject of Evil Eye..
Anecdote on Life and 3ibada..
Anecdote on Giving in Time of Need..
T-shirt design: L'Amoureux!..
Craig Thompson art..
The Real Origin of Smileys :)..
T-shirt design: Happy Sailor!..
T-shirt design: threadless in Kufi..
T-shirt design: Magic e-lamp..
My August '05 T-shirt Designs ..
Your Living Space..
The Raioo Story: 2. in the garden..
The Raioo Story: 1. intro..
Arabic Beat and Instrument Music Wanted!..
 
2004
RA?NA RAI Legacy..
Algerian Chaabi..
Nour L'Koufi (Gharnati)..
Hidalgo in Morocco..
Le Secret d'Elissa Rhais..
Imam Shafii. Soni N'nafssa..
Feqqas (Moroccan Biscuiti)..
Casablanca Connect..
 
2003
ZEBDA! Un Groupe Genial!..
Al Moutanabbi. Idha Ghamarta..
Imam Shafii. sa'fir tajid 3iwada..
boston.food.Tangierino..
Long Distance Honey ..
The Working Wife and Husband..
The Hammam Public Bath: Do you still go there?..
Hip Hop Classic Favorites!..
Down With Love..
Lord Of The Rings..
How To create a Moroccan remix of a video clip ? ..
 
2002
Why we don't eat Porc?..
Do You Play Music?..
Hidoura: Your Moroccan Natural Carpet..
Khaddouj Slam-dunking From Marrakesh To New York..


FAVORITES
Hmida Rass Lmida à L'Avare de Molière!
Moroccan City Names
Shining ability is a gift...
Halloween SPECIAL 2007: La Mort D'une Souri!
Cheikha Rimitti: 83 Years of Life...
Why do we pray ?
short ones
ABSOLUTE RAIOO Summer 2007 Rai vol.2
Cheba Zohra & Mahadattes de Rilizane
Close Encounters of the Moroccan Kind!
Biyouna
Another attempt at writing. Will this language ever feel natural?
North Africa Journal
Moroccan Tattoos
From Los Angeles to Casablanca!
Amina Alaoui Lyrics
Dr. Hassan Al-Turabi
Vulgarity as revolution: Lemsakh we tsalguit
Les Oiseaux De Figuig!
ghir bessyas a moulay!
QURAN FLASH
Moroccan Playing Cards Game ronda v1.0
A Call From Algeria to Help Suffering Little Boy Mounib!
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